I am talking o a reporter about this in a couple hours: https://regina.ctvnews.ca/from-outer-space-sask-farmers-baffled-after-discovering-strange-wreckage-in-field-1.6880353

This is about an hour away from my farm, so this'll be a fun conversation, and yet another great opportunity to tell a lot of people about what a huge problem we have with unregulated commercialization of orbit. (Also I just redid my slides for my public talk next week, this is going in!)

@sundogplanets Imagine that coming through your window.

@firn Some poor guy in Florida has a piece of space junk smash through his house a couple months ago. It's getting more and more common

@sundogplanets …this would make a wonderful prop for your talks. 🤔

@WTL hahaha I guess I should have made that more clear that I meant the photo...I don't think they'll let me bring that to Toronto!

@sundogplanets Oh, I understood you. Sometimes physical objects are better than photos of them. But yes, I can imagine an airline being hesitant to allow that in your checked luggage. 🤣

@sundogplanets Well at at least that one probably isn't radioactive (cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954) but maybe worth mentioning people should be aware of the risk of toxic propellants and unfired pyros before dragging it into the truck

@reedmideke Yeah, that was my first thought too... have to figure out how to bring that up without making the poor farmer feel bad.

Interview done. I emailed Jonathan McDowell @planet4589 to ask if he had info on a possible reentry, and he immediately found it, and even had the ground track already calculated! Thank you for this meticulous tracking, Jonathan! (Because the satellite companies sure as shit aren't sharing this info!)

It was a Dragon Trunk from the Axios 3 mission, reentered on Feb 26. The reporter is going to send me contact info for the farmer who found it, so at least I can tell him what it is.

I'm now going to email everyone I know who works at CSA.

I'm *super* curious what is going to happen with this (probably nothing).

But if I can get SpaceX in trouble for dropping garbage on Canada from orbit, then I will use every power I have to make that happen!

@sundogplanets

back in the late 70s my dad got involved in the recovery of nuclear material spread around northern Canada by a failed Russian satellite.

@wa7iut he was involved in that?!! That's amazing. That's the only example so far of the outer space treaty actually resulting in a fine. Though I think there's oging to be some more fines coming soon

@sundogplanets

yes, he was involved in understanding nuclear proliferation on the technical level. He was at the U.S. DOE Pacific Northwest Lab at the time, later at Los Alamos. I'm sure there was an interest in collecting nuclear signatures (nuclear intelligence), cleaning up, and security issues since it probably was plutonium.

Did I mention the satellite I worked on in grad school at Johns Hopkins/Naval Research Labs got shot down? 😱

@wa7iut WHAT! What satellite?!

I called the farmer who found the pieces! He is super mad that SpaceX is saying that this is safe, when clearly very large pieces are making it to the ground (and this kind of thing is TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE according to every launch and reentry regulating body. Wild.)

He said I could come take a look at the pieces after he's done seeding in a few days (because, Saskatchewan). He also really liked the idea of sending a bill to SpaceX for littering on his property. This could be a lot of fun!

@sundogplanets that is BANANAS

@sundogplanets

P78-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solwind

I worked on the X-MON sensors (used for X-ray astronomy, looking for X-ray burst sources)

Fitting end to my grad student career! 😂

@wa7iut Oh that's so cool! Thanks for sharing

@sundogplanets I wonder if Boeing had something to do with that?

@dheadshot That was apparently how he first figured out it was SpaceX, he googled a serial number and it came up as being from Boeing 😬

@sundogplanets I *think* Axiom might technically the "responsible party" for Outer Space Treaty purposes, since they chartered the flight. But I bet that's never been tested.

@simonbp Ooooo this could be VERY fun

...or incredibly boring. We'll see!

@sundogplanets "Shire of Esperance did fine NASA $400 for littering" so it can be done!

https://www.spaceconnectonline.com.au/r-d/3536-remembering-nasa-s-400-fine-for-littering-australia-s-outback

@moz That's what gave me the idea!!

@sundogplanets <makes popcorn>

@sundogplanets @mastodonmigration

The bigfoot of military modeling.

Looks like a furry thing was using someone’s toy to scratch its back.

@sundogplanets I don't know what's in a Dragon trunk, but many spacecraft contain dangerous gasses and explosive components (usually with black/yellow danger striping.) There's interesting stories about this in "Bringing Columbia Home." A few days distance is probably excellent caution.

@adamshostack Yeah. The farmer had already brought it into his shop, and he's a conventional grain farmer, so I don't think he's particularly worried about chemical exposure (but I am!)

@sundogplanets Is that a prototype for the Tesla Cybertruck?

@sundogplanets HECK EM UP, SAM

HAHAHA they added my interview in to the redone version of the new story: https://regina.ctvnews.ca/from-outer-space-sask-farmers-baffled-after-discovering-strange-wreckage-in-field-1.6880353

And apparently it made national news(?!), because someone I'm on a committee with in Ontario said she saw me. I think it's time to go to bed (and hope for no more reentries...)

@elaterite Yeah agreed. Though the guy who found it is a conventional grain farmer, so he's not *too* worried about chemical exposure...

@mycrowgirl Yes, that's what gave me the idea :)

I just got an email back from one of the CSA people I contacted yesterday, and they just sent me SpaceX's media inquiry email. Given than literally every article that talks about SpaceX has "SpaceX did not respond to a request for comment" in it, this is...less than helpful 🙄

Edit to add: I just noticed it says "UNCLASSIFIED" in all caps at the top of the email, which is...hilarious? Man this situation just keeps getting weirder. I hope some journalists pick up on this.

Ok the latest twist in this saga: a different person at CSA emailed me and asked if I had the farmer's contact info, because they want to buy samples of it?!! This is getting more hilarious with every email

@sundogplanets look I may just be some random crazy dude from the other side of the planet who happens to have the same surname as you, but if I were you I'd suggest the farmer throw it up.on eBay with some reasonable asking price for safe retrieval, like $1.5m

@sundogplanets Come to think of it, the farmer could probably make some good coin selling it to SpaceXBros™.

@sundogplanets I think they'd issue a notification to UN or something? In 2022 Australia did so for 4 pieces of space debris that were found 3 were from SpaceX. But in 2023 for another piece of space debris this time from ISRO's PSLV, they didn't do the same.

https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/treatyimplementation/arra-art-v/unlfd.html

#SpaceDebris

@sundogplanets By international treaty , all space debris that has landed on earth, still belongs to the company that built it. Trying to sell it on ebay or anyplace else would get the seller in a great deal of trouble. All you can do is hold it for the owner to collect it, and the owner must pay for any damage to the property.

Oh my gosh it just keeps coming. So, I reached out to a colleague who I trust and respect on space law issues, asking them what actually the law says about space junk on someone's farm in another country. And I fully expected to hear something like "oh yes, the Outer Space Treaty says this and this" with clear directions.

Instead, they asked for the farmer's contact info so THEY COULD TRY TO BUY THE SPACE JUNK

That's the hardest I've laughed in a really long time. Wow.

@sundogplanets

LOL - I would have never even thought of that.

P.S. The Outer Space Treaty actually doesn’t really touch on this. The closest is the Liability Convention and it is very much have your country talk to the launching country.

@alysondecker Right! Ugh I hate that I am suddenly supposed to be a space law expert. I don't want to know any of this... At least it's funny.

@sundogplanets Of course they do. 🤣🤦🏻

Well, I again didn't get a big giant thing done that I've been procrastinating on for months because it sucks. But I did learn a hell of a lot about space law and I have a feeling I will have zillions of news interview in the next few days, which is great! I hope this gets lots of people talking about unregulated commercialization of orbit!

Quitting work stuff for the day. Time for goats, auroras, and wondering if my trip to Toronto will actually happen or if space weather will cancel it...

@sundogplanets I don't understand why the under-regulation of damaging space junk is funny. Absurd, ok. But these are dangerous and ppl profit from that, wtf.

@fembot this particular situation is hilarious. The complete lack of regulation and commercial free-for-all in orbit that has led to it is terrifying and infuriating. I laugh to keep going in this fight.

@sundogplanets It is pretty strange all around. I think I misunderstood – if it helps to laugh at the absurdity, I get that. I deeply appreciate your focus on space junk and orbits and your willingness to address it.

@fembot Thank you :)

@sundogplanets driving to Toronto from Saskatchewan? NOAA/SWPC implied in the briefing not to go anywhere - stay safe! I can’t believe how many times they said they don’t know what will happen

ok jumping back into this thread because hahahaha I can't believe everything that's happening.

I found out during a live radio interview this morning that someone claiming to be from SpaceX did indeed call the farmer, and ask to get the space junk back from him. But it sounds like whoever contacted him has absolutely no idea how rural Saskatchewan works. There is no FedEx. There are no addresses. This is going to be harder to recover than they thought.

I talked to a couple of space law experts to find out what to even advise the farmer on this. I had sort of thought that since it's in another country and it fell on private property, it belongs to the property owner.

But it is much more complicated than that, because of the Outer Space Treaty.

What *should* have happened is Global Affairs Canada should have contacted the US State Department, who should have contacted SpaceX.

@sundogplanets They'll drop in by helicopter!

But I think what actually happened was someone somewhere else in the Canadian gov't saw a news interview and told SpaceX.

The space law experts I talked to agreed that since SpaceX has now asked for it (assuming it *is* SpaceX), the farmer has to surrender it. BUT he should ask for compensation.

If there had been damage, the US gov't would have had to compensate the Canadian gov't, but because it's a private company, and no damage happened, compensation is voluntary

I chatted with the farmer again, and he's doing everything right! He asked for proof that the person was from SpaceX. He asked them to donate to the local skating rink. He's being careful at every step. He's doing a great job of dealing with a totally bizarre situation that very few people in the world have ever had to deal with.

I'll be heading up to visit him and see the junk over the weekend once I'm back in Sask, he seemed pretty confident that he'd still be in possession of it.

@sundogplanets What a story!

I have so many interview requests that I'm actually starting to lose track of them at this point...

But I'm really glad there is so much interest. This is terrifying stuff: SpaceX and other companies are dumping stuff on the ground that could very easily kill people. Countries need to enforce the rules that already exist, and the regulations NEED to be updated to take into account how terrifyingly many re-entries are happening now.

Augh I have an interview written on my calendar happening soon but I can't find it anywhere in my email.... oh noooooo I need a better system.

I have now done 5 interviews about Saskatchewan space junk from a random empty classroom at University of Toronto.

@sundogplanets Clippy here! It sounds like you are using Microsoft Outlook to manage your calendar and email. Conveniently, this program makes calendar invitations disappear from your inbox when you accept them! With any luck some of that information moves to your calendar. Glad to be of service to you, and have a nice day!

@Brad_Rosenheim oh no that's probably what happened uhhhh I wonder how I find my calendar...

@sundogplanets Shouldn't he also ask that SpaceX provide proof that the junk is from one of their satellites before demanding it back?

I was thinking such proof could be useful next time they claim that there is no danger of things landing where they can cause damage.

@Uilebheist Ooo that's an interesting idea

@zenheathen That is actually how you have to give directions around rural Sask. It's hilarious. Google maps doesn't do land locations

@zenheathen @sundogplanets "where the big tree used to be"

Yes!!

@zenheathen @sundogplanets

Haha, we're always asking, "where did that come from"? Signs we don't get out much.

@sundogplanets @Brad_Rosenheim If you're using Mac or iOS to sync to Outlook you may need to delete you calendar caches periodically. There are three files in the Library Calendars folder that I delete every few months when everything vanishes and syncing stops. Very tedious.

@Brad_Rosenheim @sundogplanets also deletes the email IIRC, which is incredibly stupid. I actually setup a rule to auto forward anything with an ICS to my personal email so I didn't lose appointments 🥲

@ketmorco @sundogplanets Hi! Clippy here again! Isn't technology great?

@Brad_Rosenheim @ketmorco @sundogplanets
Clippy's back — and hellbent on fixing technology.
https://www.techradar.com/computing/windows/clippy-goes-rogue-infamous-paperclip-assistant-returns-to-windows-11-in-order-to-help-declutter-the-os

SpaceX next, Clippy! 😡

@elaterite @RunRichRun @Brad_Rosenheim @sundogplanets I used Mac, Windows, and Linux in different (programming) jobs at different points in my career. I have to agree with #ThreeDeadTrollsInABaggie

#EveryOSSucksAndBlowsAtTheSameTime

In more particular words - Linux, Mac, and Windows will all break, probably horribly, for absolutely no reason at all.

On Mac there's a *chance* that the problem can be fixed from the BSD roots...

1/2

@sundogplanets wow! Any guidance on getting paid to interview? Do you have to get a science agent for that?

@carlysagan Do people get paid for news interviews?! I always considered it a part of my job as a professor at a public university...hm.

@sundogplanets I thought Carl Sagan had an agent that got him paid for every interview right? So you should get that! It’s a lot of energy to interview for me, I don’t know what to do going forward with it

@carlysagan yeah it's definitely exhausting... this is an interesting thing to consider. Thanks for the idea.

I'm going to CBC studios in Toronto tomorrow morning for an interview and coffee with a science journalist that I'm totally going to fangirl about! This is exciting (but it means I have to shift 2 other interviews I had already scheduled...haha this is so hilarious)

@intothewestaway Nicole Mortillaro!!

@sundogplanets wow!
That’s great!!

@sundogplanets @Brad_Rosenheim check your deleted emails folder, I’ve found accepted calendar invites in mine

@sundogplanets "… donate to the local skating rink" sounds like a perfectly Canadian request.

@woody I know! I am super impressed with this guy and really looking forward to meeting him

Nicole Mortillaro gave me a hug after the interview! ❤️ ❤️ ❤️

...and let me just say that it is fucking surreal to get texts from my partner about baby goats while I'm trying not to completely freak out walking through downtown Toronto after a CBC interview.

@sundogplanets that scene from The Incredibles 2, when the mother receives a call from the father asking for about some domestic stuff while she is is pursuing a villain and trying not to die in the process

@sundogplanets

👏🤗

I'll write much more about this later, but... this happened:

@sundogplanets Wow! Hard working person collected space junk! Bewdy, Professor!

@sundogplanets

what a great thread

not only because it's an awesome read

but because it's impactful, no pun intended

@sundogplanets I’m from Saskatchewan. This makes me homesick. One can still be unreachable there! *I hope Toronto has treated you kindly. 💛

So...this saga is ongoing, but here's the latest. I met the farmer on Saturday. He is incredibly nice, and his memory and deductive reasoning powers are impressive! It was really fun to chat and learn from him all the information he pieced together on his own, just from studying the piece of space junk. Farmers = engineers!

He also showed me the official lawyer-y-but-polite email he got from SpaceX. They said they will come pick up the piece from him, and they will compensate him. Good!

Legally, he's supposed to turn over the space junk to the owners, and he doesn't want to fight SpaceX, especially if they are being polite and provide a healthy donation to the Ituna skating rink as he requested.

But it's totally unclear if Canada has any laws on the books that could be actually used to compel a Canadian citizen to hand over a piece of space junk to a company in another country. So, from a space law standpoint, it would be a lot more "fun" if he refused. What would happen?

After meeting him, I drove around the area - if that big a piece (it's 100 pounds and 4 feet by 6 feet) made it to the ground intact, then smaller pieces definitely did too. We didn't find anything, of course. It's a HUGE area to search.

But I got a piece of paper and wrote "Did you find space junk? Call me!" with my name and number and left it on the small town co-op bulletin board, and I talked to the small town newspaper journalist who first wrote about it.

So the saga will continue...

@sundogplanets if a small piece lands in a field and doesn’t get noticed until it destroys a plow, is SpaceX liable for the plow and the delays and the potential loss of crops?

@ShadSterling A very interesting question... seeding is mostly done here, I wonder if anyone busted their seeders on space junk?

The only time I go to my campus office in the summer is for media interviews about space junk, apparently?

(Also, today I learned CTV journalists do it all themselves! This impressive journalist set up the camera shots and did all the filming while also interviewing me. Wow.)

I learned that SpaceX is only going to pay the farmer $5,000 for the space junk that could have killed him. I'm glad they're paying, but that's piddly for a megacorporation owned by an awful billionaire that dumped hazardous garbage on his property.

He said he passed along SpaceX's contact info to others nearby who he thinks may have also found pieces of junk (he hinted that someone nearby may possibly have found an even bigger piece than his).

And I saw a media statement from the Canadian Space Agency that said people who find space junk shouldn't contact them, they should contact local emergency services. Which is... really dumb? What is an RCMP officer stationed in small-town Saskatchewan going to do with space junk?! I'm super not impressed.

The saga continues...

@sundogplanets They should mount whatever else they find in the trophy case at the skating rink.

Got 2 interview requests within 3 minutes. People are still interested! Excellent.

(How many TV news interviews can I be on wearing the same sweater?)

Just to keep this crazy thread going: https://m.ai6yr.org/@firefly/112497343686542787

So, this is a new piece of SpaceX junk (from the same type of "fully demisable" Crew Dragon trunk as the piece in Saskatchewan), that fell on North Carolina, USA. Maybe the American gov't will pay more attention now? (Maybe the Canadian gov't too, who knows)

Why does SpaceX think it's ok to experiment with dropping giant pieces of space junk on us?!

@sundogplanets 🤔 I wonder how long before space junk causes a forest fire? (I know this is unlikely)

I just did a double interview with Jonathan McDowell for a (very overwhelmed) reporter in North Carolina! Again - very glad people are starting to care!

I learned from Jonathan that there have been 23 Crew Dragon Trunk reentries so far. 10 have been over water, 8 are in inaccessible places (deep desert/jungle/lost), and 3 of the remaining 5 have now had very large pieces found on the ground. Not great odds...

I'm going to go outside and snuggle goats now. Wowee what a week.

@sundogplanets Thank you for keeping everyone in the loop. This saga is QUITE fascinating. And enjoy the goats!

This article really covers a lot of the interesting grey areas of international law and satellites dropping on people: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/space-debris-responsibility-1.7211473

And Jonathan McDowell hinted that a piece of one of the other Dragon Trunks that fell near Colorado Springs has been recovered. So that means giant pieces of debris have been found for 4 out of 5 reentries that were possible to recover.

SpaceX, you suck. Stop dropping giant space junk pieces on us. Maybe stop making space junk, period?!

Hey Calgary! I'll be live on QR Calgary/630 CHED radio at 11:30 MDT/CST today talking about space junk (I'm going to set an alarm for myself right now so I don't forget)

And Global News interviewed me and the farmer who found the debris a few days ago and that story is up now: https://globalnews.ca/news/10523044/saskatchewan-space-junk-liability-outer-space/

I talked to the farmer over the weekend and he said he called our MP who called him right back within 30 minutes! I called him over the weekend and he hasn't called yet... will he call me later?

Since the Outer Space Treaty that covers space junk is a nation-to-nation treaty, that could be a pretty interesting way to assert some First Nation sovereignty if any SpaceX pieces are found on First Nation land...

I just cold-called the band offices of 2 First Nations that own reserve land right near where the space junk was found and offered to help make connections if anyone finds space junk on their land.

Time for audience participation: have any of you seen any news articles about the SpaceX pieces in Saskatchewan or North Carolina where SpaceX has publicly admitted that it's theirs? Or even responded to a journalist in any way at all? I think they still haven't publicly admitted it

(Although I saw a printout of the email from SpaceX to the farmer, so they have certainly admitted it to him)

Oops apparently the radio show I just got interviewed for was in Edmonton, not Calgary. Hi Edmonton! I was maybe a little pessimistic on that interview, sorry, especially when I ended with "Clear skies... and look out for falling space junk!"

I'll be on another radio show for 900 CHML in Hamilton at 3:20 EDT. I'll try to make sure I'm in a less darkly sarcastic mood...

oh nooo that interview was even more sarcastic! I should have eaten lunch first rather than giving a hangry interview. Sorry, Hamilton. I'm going to go eat lunch now...

My MP never called me. Not sure whether to be annoyed (because my MP personally called back an old white farmer dude who found space junk but not a woman scientist who studies it), or relieved (because I don't actually want to talk to my conservative MP, who I disagree with on just about everything).

Got an email from my MP's office saying they'll forward the email on to the actual MP to read. So... maybe I'll have to talk to him today haha.

Now I'm trying to figure out an email chain with someone in the Canadian gov't who actually wants to come out here and look for debris, but they email only in bureaucrat-ese so I'm not even sure exactly what they're asking or when they might come or who to ask for help... This could be very interesting, or really frustrating and weird, not sure...

WELL I just looked at the cute little prairie newsletter in my inbox from The Flatlander https://theflatlander.ca/ and uh... that's me in the picture for story number 2, despite me not having been interviewed by them.

Time for bed!

Turns out I've had a giant misunderstanding with someone who's been talking about going out to find pieces and map out the debris field... I thought they were planning to come here, but they were actually asking me to price out my "university research services" doing the fieldwork. My university doesn't have magical "research services" to do fieldwork, and I'm the only astronomer, so it would just be ME.

That is...a lot to ask me to do, especially since I'm not trained for this...sigh.

@sundogplanets Seems like a grad student or postdoc could do the fieldwork?

@avirr If I magically had a postdoc or grad student trained to do fieldwork that I myself am not trained to do, then yes.

I talked to Barry again this morning. He wasn't able to convince SpaceX to give him any more than $5k, but he convinced them to give $5k per piece, and he+family found 3. They are supposedly coming to pick it up from him early next week (but that's what he said last weekend when I talked to him, so who knows... I'd imagine this is a cross-border logistical nightmare and I'm glad SpaceX has to deal with that).

Apparently SpaceX made him write them an official invoice??

He said his whole payment will go to the Ituna skating rink. He was hoping for more, but I guess this is all he's going to get from a company owned by a fucking BILLIONAIRE.

While there are many things I'd rather raise money for, I'm quite tempted to start a fundraiser for the Ituna skating rink, just to show that communties are way better than billionaires... hmmm I'll have to think more about this.

@sundogplanets I have missed a lot of this saga but WOW. WOWWW. I am going to catch up and do something on this.

@skrishna Thanks, I would be happy to chat with you! I've had loads of media uptake in Canada but almost nothing from the US!

My MP didn't call me back, CSA says local law enforcement should deal with it, and I even called the "Saskatchewan Poachers and Polluters" hotline and the Ministry of Environment yesterday and neither of them wanted to touch this.... so I still have no idea what people are supposed to do when they find space junk.

It's going to become a LOT more common to find space junk, and I sure hope the answer isn't "just wait for SpaceX to track you down," because that seems to be the answer right now.

@sundogplanets Did I miss a bit where he's compelled to sell it to them? I sorta imagine regular ol' space fans with money would pay more than $5K for that (although SpaceX should pay to clean up its own junk, grateful they didn't kill anyone with it yet).

@meganL According to the Outer Space Treaty, he's required to return it to the USA. Not at all clear if he has to give it to SpaceX, but everyone I've talked to has said it's definitely not going to be worth fighting them on this, especially if the Canadian gov't doesn't care

@jmorris @sundogplanets If you find a bit of satellite debris then that's not the daftest approach to take. Some (a very small %) may have radioactive components. But on top of that, there's various nasty chemicals used as propellants and the like. I'd avoid licking anything until somebody who really knows their stuff has had a look.

One aspect of this story I haven't really let myself get angry about until just now: this particular SpaceX Crew Dragon trunk that dropped garbage on Sask. was from the Axiom 3 "private astronaut mission."

"Private astronaut" = billionaire space tourist.

Billionaires own companies that other billionaires pay for joy rides that drop potentially lethal garbage on us from orbit. This is fine.

I already knew billionaires are horrible, but this particular situation really lays it out starkly.

@sundogplanets I appreciate you making a scandal out of it.

Any chance there will be opportunities to accidentally compromise SpaceX's IP by posting photos and details about their junk?

@aarbrk I have an album of close-up photos that I took that I've been sharing with journalists. Maybe I should just post it on here? Hmmm

@sundogplanets IMHO that's one the most important aspects of the story.

Most Dragon flights are done in deep coordination with NASA, an agency that still remembers when it dropped a space station on Australia.

Axiom is largely by ex-NASA JSCers, but clearly isn't as persnickety in its requirements. That could be on them, or SpaceX not letting them, or both, but obviously not a great precedent.

@simonbp @sundogplanets NASA did still approve the Crew-7 launch and return, after which SpaceX dropped those pieces over North Carolina.

Which does nothing to excuse Kamal Ghaffarian's group from making such a mess in Saskatchewan.

Regulatory failures all over the place...

@michael_w_busch @simonbp The very first crew dragon trunk also dropped on Australia... and 3/5 trunks that were possible to find have been found (and I've heard credible rumors about the 4th). So I think SpaceX is just doing an incredibly bad job on this particular bit of engineering and planning.

@michael_w_busch @sundogplanets Yeah. NC is close enough to the coast that you could argue it was an honest mistake. Saskatchewan not so much...

@sundogplanets @michael_w_busch @simonbp Inner Dialogue: “see that teeny tiny planet down there? All those little people of no real value live down there. That’s where we dump our trash. Because we matter. They don’t. Wait until the guys at the club see my selfies in space!”

@sundogplanets How much of that payment could go to making a sign “Musk funded this, because he can't keep his junk where it belongs”?

@sundogplanets While I certainly agree with you in general on the obnoxious billionaire space tourist business, Sam, Axiom-3 was rather different.

The crew compromised an Axiom commander (López-Alegría, ex-NASA) & three government/industry-sponsored astronauts, all military or ex-military pilots: Walter Villadei from Italy, Alper Gezeravcı from Turkey, & Markus Wandt from Sweden (trained by ESA).

That rather weird mix doesn’t make the space debris issue any better; arguably it makes it worse.

@sundogplanets
NASA/ESA/RosCos: Let's think carefully about how we deal with waste disposal because it would cause issues if we didn't.
SpaceX/Blue Origin: lol why do we need to think about waste disposal lol (causes problems)

@markmccaughrean Thanks for clarifying - I spent a little time wading through Axiom propoganda and it's really hard to figure out what's real. But...they did still pay their own way, correct? They're just very qualified billionaires? Or something? This just keeps getting weirder...

@sundogplanets Not in this case.

López-Alegría is an Axiom employee, so flew at their cost: AFAIK, the rule is that any vehicle visiting the ISS has to be commanded by a govt astronaut who has been there before.

Wandt's flight was paid for by his employer, Saab, & the Swedish govt, & Villadei & Gezeravcı were paid for by the Italian & Turkish govts. Why Italy paid for Villadei's flight when they've already had many ESA astronauts, I have no idea. Feels very odd.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2024/02/09/astronauts-from-turkey-italy-and-sweden-return-to-earth-ending-private-space-station-trip

@sundogplanets I mean, generically, I get why countries who have never had astronauts might want to fly one this way for national prestige reasons & perhaps even some who have had them under a previous system might want to fly a younger one now (e.g. Poland).

But again, quite what the motivation is for the Italian govt to fly Villadei (& he also had a Virgin Galactic flight) when they have active ESA astros like Parmitano & Cristoforetti, & have had many others in the past, I have no idea.

@markmccaughrean Wow, thank you for spelling that all out! I wish they'd made that more clear on their website...

This is all just bizarre.... and I wish Axiom and SpaceX would BOTH take responsibility for dumping garbage on Canada! SpaceX has still not publicly admitted anything, which is just totally obnoxious.

Thanks to @markmccaughrean for correcting my assumptions! I guess "private astronaut" really is the correct terminology here - they were all trained astronauts with their tickets paid by their government or employers (I guess other Axiom missions were more for space tourists?) Still kind of weird.

And it would still be great if SpaceX *and* Axiom would publicly admit they made a big engineering mistake and state they will fix it, rather than just giving farmers piddly little private payments.

@sundogplanets Indeed. The whole ESA "reserve/project astronaut" scheme is, IMHO, rather strange.

It opens the door to ESA member states flying an astro on a one-off basis via Axiom, rather than training them for full careers.

For smaller countries, that may be cheaper than subscribing sufficient long-term money into ESA to get a career astro at some point.

The short-term political gains are clear, but personally I believe it undermines ESA's credibility as a major govt space agency.

Anybody remember that documentary filmmaker who brought a crew out here back in Feb? His whole film "Shifting Baselines" is effectively about how recklessly dangerous SpaceX is.

The Sask space junk fell about 30 km away from where the film crew and I went to access Bortle 2 dark skies, only a couple weeks later.

So, I just chatted with him again! Editing is almost done on his documentary, but he thought he could squeeze in a bit of a recording of me talking about space junk for an epilogue.

@sundogplanets if invoicing, then he might get paid as a conractor, if so Musk might have to withold US income tax on the actual payment

Supposedly that can be cleared up with some paperwork and a US taxpayer ID, e.g. might require incorporation in the US

I am not an international trade expert, but a US org I help ran into this with a Canadian company we engaged for services a few years ago

I talked to the farmer again and apparently SpaceX is coming on Thursday to pick up the space junk. He said he'd be happy to host some journalists at his farm to record the hand-off and keep SpaceX honest.

So, I just emailed a large fraction of the local journalists who have interviewed me about this to give them a heads-up 😈

@sundogplanets Nicely done!

@sundogplanets you think they'll use one of those marvelous Cybertruck things for the pickup?

@otte_homan Oh my gosh that is a HILARIOUS idea

@otte_homan @sundogplanets The pieces would have to be pretty small then, based on the Cybertruck I saw roaming the streets of NYC two days ago.

@otte_homan @sundogplanets If they do use a Cybertruck, expect them to turn up in Argentina and complain that they can't find the farm.

Wait wait wait wait... a piece of the SpaceX Crew Dragon trunk that landed in North Carolina last week actually hit someone's house?! https://abcnews.go.com/US/north-carolina-men-find-suspected-space-debris-same/story?id=110809039

@sundogplanets

Was it just me or did I not live most of my life without ever hearing of space debris falling on someone's head.

@sundogplanets melon seems somewhat worse than an average human at understanding chance, risk, and probability. and i suspect you're well aware of how excellent humans usually are at these things 😁

@markmccaughrean @sundogplanets about the motivation to fly Villadei, here's a 2020 article from Il Sole 24 Ore (italian economic newspaper), it's probably still a mystery... or politics 😏 it's funny how this guy, probably advised about this article, asked not one, not two but three lawyers to write a letter to the newspaper. https://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/la-storia-walter-villadei-l-astronauta-che-sarebbe-causa-dell-addio-cristoforetti-ACDBVp9

@ranx @sundogplanets Thanks for the link, but unfortunately it needs a subscription to read. I’d certainly be interested in seeing a translation though if at all possible. Seems like a very strange thing to me.

@markmccaughrean @sundogplanets let's see if this works. to expedite the process I asked G Translate for help (keep that in mind). 🙂

@ranx @sundogplanets Jeepers. If the main article didn’t make your skin crawl, the defensive & obsequious letter from the lawyers at the end certainly would 😬

One heck of a fishy story & you really wonder who is really behind this “shadow astronaut”. Because sure as eggs is eggs, he didn’t pay for his trip to the ISS himself.

I’ll ask Samantha for her side of the story next time I see her, although I can imagine that she won’t necessarily be willing to talk.

@markmccaughrean @ranx Wow...what a crazy story! Thanks for sharing

@sundogplanets didn’t really expect landing space trash to look like furry “wicked looking” things. Makes it even more horrifying lol

@jmcrookston This is why it's suddenly a problem: https://planet4589.org/space/stats/active.html

Thanks, Starlink

@michael_w_busch @andy Really?? Meteorites are covered?! Wow I never thought to check that in mine... guess I should!

@sundogplanets There were TWO separate pieces of junk that fell in NC? First one was in the woods, second one on a house!

@megsouth Yeah, there are probably dozens.

@carlysagan Did you see in the article the guy who found it thought it was a dead crow at first?!

@sundogplanets

Oh, good, so we got 2 pieces here near Asheville. This is quite close to us.

@czarbucks Probably dozens of more large pieces still to find

@sundogplanets

The Carnival Barker barks again sigh

@sundogplanets

I hope that means it hasn't hit anyone or their homes. This is nuts.

@czarbucks One piece hit a guy's house in North Carolina. Didn't say if there was damage (I guess not since he didn't seem worried about it?)

The farmer called me earlier today to let me know SpaceX won't be coming up until next week (exact date unknown).

Again... I cannot even imagine what a bureaucratic disaster it must be to take pieces of an American private company's spacecraft (which I recently learned are legally considered to be "munitions" by the US gov't) that fell in another country across an international land border.

HA HA HA HA good luck to whichever poor SpaceX employee drew the short straw on that job.

@sundogplanets Wonder if SpaceX got messages from reporters who wanted to be present for the pick-up and decided to abort so they can last-minute it to avoid the publicity. 🤔

@WTL They don't communicate or listen to reporters at all, as far as I can tell.

@sundogplanets They don't *reply*. It wouldn't surprise me much if there was some poor intern whose job was to look through incoming media requests for anything of note. Or maybe they really are that poorly organized over there. 🤷🏻 It's all bad.

@sundogplanets

This is a FABULOUS thread, and I wish we had someone in Western North Carolina paying half this much attention to the debris falling on our heads...

#SpaceX #Junk #Debris #NASA

@czarbucks I talked to one journalist there last week, and I'm talking to another one on Friday! It took a good month before people started paying any attention at all to the Saskatchewan space junk...

@sundogplanets

I think you’re awesome!

We don’t have a great media presence here, so I’m impressed you talked to 2 already. I’m beyond flabbergasted that this crap is falling out of the sky (and onto houses!) and people are just, “oh yawn, well what do you expect?”

Anyway, appreciate so much what you’ve been doing. And the baby goats!

@czarbucks Thanks! And if you happen to know any other journalists in NC, please feel free to connect them with me! I'm happy to talk more about this mess - people should be talking about it!

@sundogplanets somebody who really learns how to handle that might end up with a really high-paying job because nobody else wants to do that

Most hilariously absurd email I've received related to space junk so far:

Apparently I should pay some enterprising web-scraping company $200 for a plaque commemorating the incredible moment that an article from the Canadian Press with quotes from me was reprinted by the Hamilton Spectator.

Truly a historic moment worthy of a plaque.

@timdesuyo Yeah, that's a really good point! And I can do that myself for a whole lot less than $200 :)

@sundogplanets I think a plaque with this toot on it would be OK.

I just got to chat with Josh Sokol about space junk and all other aspects of satellite pollution. He's an amazing writer and currently working on a book about how we're collectively losing the night sky. He talked to my astro 101 class years ago about being a science writer, and we've chatted a lot about satellite pollution.

Everything he writes is totally amazing, I'm really excited about his book (seriously, his articles are fantastic, read some of his writing here: https://www.joshuasokol.com/)

@sundogplanets Josh is great. Glad to read that you connected with him!

@JohnBarentine He is wonderful! I'm so glad he's writing a book

@sundogplanets

I know that space junk!

The farmer just called to let me know that SpaceX is coming to get the junk pieces from him tomorrow morning!

Time to email a bunch of reporters again! And decide if it's worth going up there myself to watch. Hmmm...

@sundogplanets A bad person would suggest sneaking some kind of fake Andromeda Strain sample in there too...

Already got 3 positive replies from journalists. YES. Thank you, journalists, for helping keep giant companies accountable! This could be fun!

(Or maybe SpaceX will cancel again. Who knows).

@sundogplanets I'd say if you can make time in your day, it's probably worth it.

@McRocker @VE2UWY ok this has to become a poll, I think

The space junk pick up will be by:

@sundogplanets I chose "random local person with tractor" because a professional courier might legally require safety disclosures, yadda. Doesn't necessarily sound like something SpaceX would give a shit about. Perhaps even something they'd purposefully avoid.

Well, I didn't get any of the "real" work I had planned done today, but there are journalists from at LEAST 6 different news outlets coming to watch SpaceX pick up their space garbage from that farm near Ituna, so I feel like I accomplished something useful.

I am *very* much looking forward to watching some poor SpaceX employee walk in to a media circus that I created for them on a remote farm. Oh gosh this is delightful.

@sundogplanets
That’s a job for the government to do, like the other sites contaminated by industrial waste

@SNerd @sundogplanets

In theory, but this is SpaceX ...

@VE2UWY @sundogplanets
No I mean, that’s what billionaires believe, it’s the government’s problem

@SNerd @VE2UWY Once something goes into orbit, absolute liability for any damage belongs to the government of the country that it launched from. So, if there was damage, the US government would have to pay the Canadian government. Since there wasn't any damage found (yet), it's a totally grey area.

If I bring donuts for the reporters coming to watch SpaceX pick up the space junk today, should I give any to the SpaceX people?

Required apology is the clear frontrunner already. I can imagine how hilarious this will be... "Ok, guys, I have some delicious donuts here, but do you have something you want to say first? Perhaps say it to the TV camera over there?"

(But yes, odds are they are low-level SpaceX employees who drew the short straw and had to travel to the middle of nowhere to pick up garbage, I probably am not mean enough to withhold donuts. But we'll see how obnoxiously tech-bro they are in person...)

@mattkenworthy YES THIS IS THE BEST WAY

@sundogplanets I just can't wait for the live tooting! Take photos! 🍿

@greg_harvey Probably no live updates. But I'll definitely write about how it went afterwards!

@sundogplanets Only if the reporters leave some for them. (So, no.)

@sundogplanets ooh are we laying odds on whether they even send an employee or whether they taskrabbit an "independent contractor" or some such nonsense?

IT WAS A UHAUL

I CANNOT MAKE THIS STUFF UP

THAT WAS INCREDIBLE

ok I'll try to tone down the all caps but I'm really excited

That was so much better than I was even imagining...now I'm sitting in a library so maybe I can write it all out and share some photos. WOW.

There were journalists from Global News Regina, CBC Saskatchewan, 980 CJME, CTV Regina, the Canadian Press, CTV National, and the Ituna Times

I brought donuts and set them up on the back of some giant farm truck. It felt like a party!

Barry had a whole bunch of family and neighbours there, and all the reporters were all excited and chatting.

I had passed a Uhaul pulled over on the side of the dirt road to the farm and I thought that had to be the SpaceX people. It's so unlikely anyone else would have a Uhaul way out in the middle of nowhere like that.

We all chatted and waited for them to navigate the muddy road in the Uhaul.

Barry had his neighbour bring over the terrifyingly huge piece he found for a great photo op for all the journalists. That particular piece was 9 feet long, weighed 80 pounds, and was shaped like a freaking spear. It is shocking to think about that falling at terminal velocity.

I am grinning like an idiot because I was REALLY excited.

There was about 250 lbs of junk here. SpaceX has never shared how much a Crew Dragon Trunk weighs, I'd guess this is a significant fraction!

@sundogplanets This whole thread has been amazing. I've been on the edge of my seat waiting for updates.

Then the Uhaul arrived! There were 2 very young, very nervous looking engineers who got out and walked over to face the throng of reporters.

I had hoped they'd actually be chatty, but of course they weren't. They wouldn't even admit they were from SpaceX at first! It wasn't until the whole pack of journalists followed them across the yard asking questions that they finally admitted they were SpaceX employees. (Thanks, journalists!!)

@sundogplanets YES! MY CHOICE!

The reporters were amazing! They shamelessly recorded as the SpaceX guys opened up the Uhaul, put on gloves, and picked up each piece one by one to load in the back (some of the pieces required both of them working together). They kept also asking questions, which were completely ignored.

It was SO AWKWARD.

So, once they were done loading, I decided to make it even more awkward by walking into the clump of reporters with the box of donuts, invitingly open. I asked nicely if they'd like any, and that broke through the ice just a little bit. They both smiled tentatively at me.

One of the journalists behind me said "It's ok, she's not a journalist, you can trust her!"

And I said, "Nope, I'm an astronomer" and I'm pretty sure my innocent smile turned positively evil.

They did not take any donuts.

At this point, the engineers were obviously trying to escape into a side room with Barry, away from the reporters.

I quickly tried to get in my one question "How much do these trunks weigh? That info isn't public" and they smiled at me and didn't answer.

I followed along as they walked to the side door with Barry and asked if they were worried about taking it across the border. One of them looked nervously at the Uhaul, smiled nervously, and walked away. Well, I tried.

Then while they negotiated with Barry, it was time for a proper media scrum. This was pretty fun, actually, especially since I was so pumped up at this point (I was actually jumping up and down with excitement more than once as I watched reporters following the poor SpaceX dudes around). The reporters were all having a great time and happily chatting with each other. Very good vibes.

Special highlight, one of the local reporters took Astro 101 from me my first year teaching here!

Shout out to the lovely snuggly farm cat who rubbed on everyone's legs, graciously accepted pats, and then curled up for a nap on very expensive recording equipment.

Everyone filmed the Uhaul driving off once the engineers were done with their private chat with Barry, then it was time to media scrum with Barry (hats off to this guy! It took me years of practice to be comfortable with this kind of interview, and he just waltzed into it. Well done, sir! Farmers are just good at everything).

Then all the reporters gradually packed up, many writing portions of their articles on their phones while packing (impressive!), and some took a donut for the road.