#LKML statements I did not expect to see when I opened my mailer today:

"'I certainly use Linux with actual ISA hardware, i.e. systems with ISA or EISA slots and option cards within, as well as other hardware dating back to 1989. I'm told people use Linux with m68k hardware going back in time even further. '"

https://lore.kernel.org/all/alpine.DEB.2.21.2408131802050.59022@angie.orcam.me.uk/ #Linux #Kernel #LinuxKernel

2/ Side note: there are developers that hope 32 bit x86 support (aka x86-32/ix86) will be removed soon from the #Linux #Kernel.

I don't see this happening any time soon. But I sometimes wonder if the 32 and 64 bit x86 code that once was merged with great effort will be split again to make it easier to improve 64 bit x86 support without breaking 32 bit x86 machines.

@kernellogger I am all for retro computing (I can operate a z23 after all), but I have little sympathy for people expecting the Linux Kernel community to serve their interests in that way.
The Kernel community has limited resources and they are better spent on other things than supporting obsolete systems.

@kernellogger split of x86-64 and i386 will probably not gonna happen. Would make x32 support complicated.

Not that anyone uses it.

@hrw @kernellogger 😬 thanks for reminding me of that architecture variant designed for a world where RAM didn't become cheaper.

@mxk

+1

but FWIW (and mainly for the bystanders), a quick reminder:

Linus' iirc explicitly stated more than once that the "no regressions" rule[1] does not cover museum style hardware; people that want to run Linux there can use older versions.

The thing is: it's often hard to tell where "using productively" stops and "retro computing/hw museum" starts…

[1] which afaics is the main reason why the ix86 support is unlikely to be removed any time soon

@kernellogger I know and the recent cleanups do certainly point in that direction.

But I also agree with you, that x86-32 probably will stay for quite some time.
If Intel/AMD actually implement something like x86s, that might help.

@mxk @hrw

wondering when the next "let's remove x32" debate is due.

There was recently a subthread that discussed if there were any users, but that was all…

https://lore.kernel.org/all/CAMe9rOoEQ3jUUXy+Kai9Hg83b+79azmGfu8DBR=A3HSL05kj0A@mail.gmail.com/

@kernellogger Of course! We also still have for example customers using arcnet in big machines these days...

@kernellogger let me introduce to you the concept of

👉 emotional support computer 👈

that doesn't bring value to the shareholders, but keeps our brains operational

@lkundrak

😬

What I need is a emotional support robot; might be a bad choice, but the first one my mind came up with was this one: 🙃

@kernellogger oh no, is it sad because it's x86?

@kernellogger It's tricky knowing where to draw the line; the hardware vendors would rather that the only drivers they maintained were brand new ones and they could put last years under a bus straight away.
Someone else on here is being paid to physically maintain a SCO box running ISA NICs for a business; the world is a weird place.

@kernellogger @mxk @hrw I'm using x86-32. Thinkpad X60 is still best notebook ever :-).

@pavel @mxk

FWIW, to avoid confusion: pretty sure @hrw just like myself really meant "x32" (64 bit x86 arch with 32-bit integers, longs and pointers iirc), and not 32 bit x86 support (aka x86-32, i386, ix86, …)

@pavel @kernellogger @hrw funnily you are mentioning exactly a laptop, for which more modern replacement Mainboards exist.
I can see the qualities of this laptop shell and it's keyboard, but I certainly wouldn't want to be limited to 4gb ram and 32bit ASLR for anything that is online

@kernellogger @pavel @mxk @hrw you mean IA32??

@lkundrak @pavel @mxk @hrw

ha, I new I was forgetting one -- and that's exactly the one my mind failed to come up with 😂

@kernellogger @pavel @mxk That's why I use x86-64 and i386 names. Clear separation between 64- and 32-bit names.

Better than x64 used by MS Windows as x32 != i386.

Also better than IA32 cause IA64 != x86-64.

@kernellogger @pavel @mxk @hrw hope you at least remember iAPX286 :)

@hrw @pavel @mxk

I like the logic, but don't use it, as it has a minor flaw, too: linux does not support the original i386 anymore…

@lkundrak @kernellogger @pavel @hrw I only remember iAPX 432

@mxk @kernellogger @pavel @hrw bruh even its designers didn't remember it after the drugs worn off

@kernellogger @pavel @mxk most distros want some kind of i686 for their x86 builds.

@lkundrak @kernellogger no, it's sad because it's IA-64 and it can no longer run Linux

@kernellogger @mxk @hrw Yep, sorry for confusion. x32 clearly needs better and longer name, because this is too easy to confused. Like pointer32-on-x86-64 :-).

@mxk @kernellogger @hrw So... the laptop shell is not in good enough shape to warrant major investment. I use Thinkpad X220 a bit more, but X60 is still good backup machine. I wonder if there are good replacements? Will I like X280 or something?

@pavel it's still more "ThinkPad Like" than any other laptop you will find, but there certainly are a lot of changes for everything after the x220.
On the positive side: screens and webcams have gotten a lot better. And even though I care little for it, modern ThinkPads actually have usable touchpads.

@hrw @kernellogger @pavel @mxk at least for Fedora I believe the only reason i686 is hanging around is because it's needed for some pieces of Steam/wine for old 32 bit applications

@nullr0ute @hrw @kernellogger @pavel is that still true? I thought Wine 9.0 should have fixed this
https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/releases/wine-9.0

@mxk @hrw @kernellogger @pavel TBH I have no idea, my understanding is that 32 bit apps needed it for translation, but I don't use it myself so I'm only going on what others have said