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I'm waiting for a that comes with a universal software defined radio peripherial instead of a closed LTE/4G modem and the calling, texting and networking is just realized on the SDR module.

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@licho While it's possible, LTE isn't easy to do on SDR - you need full duplex and you'll need a coprocessor for it anyway, or your main AP won't ever sleep and will be under constant real-time pressure. Then you'll need to get it certified if you want to actually use it on public networks. I'm afraid you'd end up with something uncannily similar to a closed LTE/4G modem, just slower and hungrier for power 😜

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@licho However, if what you're after is experimenting with cellular tech, then why wait? You can do it today. Get a and replace its modem M.2 card with something like uSDR: https://www.crowdsupply.com/wavelet-lab/usdr

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@dos Thank you for those insights :) You seriously aren't allowed to use a phone with an unlicensed modem? I thought licenses are only required for antennae BTS stuff, and low power "client" devices can be whatever. Like I don't think anyone verifies and licenses every silly IOT device. Or do they? O.o

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@licho These devices usually contain a broadband module (not unlike the ones in Librem 5 or PinePhone) that's already certified.

And yes, under most jurisdictions you're not allowed to transmit at all without a license; the bands that you can use for stuff like Wi-Fi etc. (with some restrictions) are explicitly allowed to be used unlicensed, and the frequencies used in cellular networks aren't included there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_radio_band

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@dos oh wow. Thanks for answering my very newbie questions btw.

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@dos I suppose that if I actually use it in a way that is indistinguishable from the standard it's fine, nobody would ever know. The problem would appear if I had a bug, experimented with some alternative protocols or tried to sell an unlicensed modem. Because as I understand it's the device that has the license, not the user, right? Like it's fine until you don't spectacularly mess up or try to sell it.

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@licho IANAL; the viability of "it's illegal, but I'll be fine unless I get caught" approach is something you'll have to consider by yourself 😂

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@dos Normally you don't need any license to use a phone right? Does that mean that you're not the one doing the transmission but the hardware? How does the responsibility get shifted to the hardware from the person? Is the "manual mode" forbidden?

Also maybe it's possible to have the open source software licensed instead from the hardware module? Like when you're running the mainline library then you're fine?

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@dos just thinking out loud. Sorry, I don't expect answer 🙏

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@licho The certification is what makes the hardware licensed and it (in principle) involves not letting the device be used in an unlicensed way.

For details you'll have to check the specific laws and regulatory bodies in particular jurisdictions.

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Technical and legal aspects of radio communication. Long.
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@dos @licho I would like someone who is well versed in the subject to chip in, because I see some mix up. I have some vague idea how radio communication works. With the v stress on *vague*.

Radio frequencies are managed by governments, according to some international conventions. Like: this range is for WiFi, that for ham radio, this for mobile phones, that for radio broadcasting, etc...

There might be different criteria defined for each use. Like, which conditions need to be fulfilled to use the frequency. Those conditions might be technical or legal.

For ham radio you need to have licence. And to get the licence, you need to have some knowledge. And you are legally allowed to build your own equipment, as long as it's compliant to the technical specification. Like, bandwidth during transmission, signal power etc.

For CB you usually do not need the b licence (YMMV, depending on the country), but you still need to follow technical requirements, similar to ham radio. You cannot just blast 1kW transmission around you.

Now we are getting to the point where I do not have a proper knowledge, and I'm guessing.

My guess is that - for WiFi or whatever successor of GSM - you don't need to use certified h/w, as long as it operates according to the specification.

The certification is to give you a paperwork, that someone has run a bunch of checks, and everything was OK. So, if something went wrong, you still need to fix things, but at least you've a confirmation, that the solution has passed the checks. What checks are - I do not know. Certainly, there are lab test runs of the equipment. But design review might happen as well.

Of course, you might add some feedback loop to your solution, to monitor the broadcast parameters, and shut the transmission off whenever it goes out of limit. But that means, the solution is more expensive (because of feedback loop), and less reliable (because of shutting off).

To make it clear. I do not know if just using uncertified h/w is punishable. But I know that transmitting signal not following the regulations for given band is. And here we are getting back to legal responsibility. For mass market devices the vendor is responsible in such cases. And if something goes wrong, you might expect a recall.

And if you make a design of your own solution, and I implement it, in case something goes wrong I doubt I can effectively use "an author told me it is OK" in my defence.

BTW, even if you use a certified chipset in your solution, you still might be at risk.

For example, for WiFi, the exact channels available, and signal power, vary between different regions of the world. That's why in the WiFi AP settings you might select the country or region. The h/w WiFi chipset can handle all the regions. But it needs to be told which region it operates in.

For WiFi the responsibility has been passed to the end user. For mobile telephony - if there are such differences - it needs to be handled properly depending where you are. And during the certification such switching is certainly checked.

Now I expect to be steamrolled by someone who has proper domain knowledge. Please do :)

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Technical and legal aspects of radio communication. Long.
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@agturcz @licho I'm not an expert either, but I know for sure that bands for cellular networks are heavily regulated and the legal framework under which they are being used and certified is completely different than for ISM bands like Wi-Fi, which are sort of a special case here.

Also, depending on its design details, you may need to certify your whole product separately even if the module it uses is already certified.

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@licho Would be hard to get FCC certification for SDR doing cell phone... right?
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@pavel Most probably but should we care?

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@licho Without certifications, you'll get very niche product in the best case. And that means expensive.
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@pavel Im not thinking of making any startup

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