An irregular reminder: #firmware is a category of #software .

If you advocate for #FreeSoftware but don't talk about #libre firmware, I'm interested I'm learning why you're making the exception.

#opensource #licensing

@dcz I gave a talk on this "semi-firm firmware" subject and the challenges of free software approaches to it a couple years back at SCALE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbvMtFLOmE

@dcz because its been accepted as an exception for soo long. Not as non software, but as even being considered for opensourcing. Your computer always ran opensource independent on what your bios was. Network card firmware? Can't say I've ever seen it opensource in real life, hardly ever as a topic of conversation.

So the explicitness comes from people excluding it.

@wmd Depending on what you mean by a network card, there is precedent:

https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware

@dcz Hot take: If anything, firmware is a thing that should be forced to be libre/opensource or at least source-available. You could make all sorts of arguments about other types of software - firmware is needed to get your metal running, they're forced upon owners of devices, so forcing them to be absolutely transparent is a logical requirement. It's crazy that this even a question.

@hagarashi8 I have a feeling even most dedicated people just gave up the fight. Whatever open-firmware solutions are left are not powerful or compatible enough for the masses, so no one is advocates for that because pragmatism.

Heck, my 12-years old main computer still has globs of firmware. But at least I complain and refuse to downgrade to something newer and without #Coreboot *shrug*.

@dcz Machines with good enough firmware that you don't need to change it are common. Same is not true for operating systems.

@pavel How do you evaluate "good enough"? I can evaluate features in closed firmware, but on the bug side I'd be lost.

@dcz This would be longer discussion. But Thinkpad firmware is usually "good enough", and yes, libre firmware is great, but I have yet to see open hardware machine with "good enough" firmware. I believe there's currently too great hardware variability and changes are too fast for libre firmware to be really viable. I'd love to be proven wrong :-).

@pavel For the record, the #nouveau project was doing quite well writing replacement firmware until nvidia banned them from doing that, so it's possible at least in principle - if people aren't intentionally adding anti-features.

@dcz There is coreboot for Thinkpad X60 and X220, IIRC, but not newer generations. I'm not saying impossible. But it is definitely not easy. Maybe we can all agree than MNT Reform is the next cool machine, and focus on that?

@pavel I think this agreement is missing in the community :)