@monsieuricon I have a tip: you can omit the second argument, in which case the written filename is deduced from original file. So the second argument is the link. HTH?

@monsieuricon EVERY. TIME!

@monsieuricon it’s the same as cp

@monsieuricon +1

@monsieuricon Most of the time I fall for it, too :D

Sometimes I can remember that you NEED a target, but linkname is optional

@waltercool@pl.slash.cl @monsieuricon@social.kernel.org if you spell it out, you're linking path $2 to path $1, so it's possible to think of $1 as the destination.
a nicer hint is to remember $2 is optional, because it makes sense to have it be $PWD.

@monsieuricon Spoiler: It's like cp.

@monsieuricon obviously like target nickname because it works just like mount

@monsieuricon The other one.

@monsieuricon I try to remind it by
ln -s from to

@monsieuricon @uliwitness “the same as cp”

(not that I don’t have to remind myself of that, but)

@monsieuricon yeah, it is funny that it is always "from to", when you create link "FROM_target (<-) TO_link_name", but when you list files you get "FROM_link_name -> TO_target"

EDIT: s/target/source/ sounds better in the first case when you create link

@waltercool @monsieuricon it stuck with me with "Source[code] first, always!!11eleven" 🤓

@monsieuricon same, but with tar

@monsieuricon @jalefkowit I rely on muscle memory - to say, I had to quickly go into a shell and start typing and see which one felt most natural. And yes, that one was the order. 😂

@monsieuricon I've memorized it with 'create a link from here to there'

@ics@tau-ceti.space @monsieuricon@social.kernel.org @jalefkowit@octodon.social this is what i do too. if i think about it too hard, i get it wrong. if i just vibe it out, it usually comes out right.

@monsieuricon
For me, ln -s src dest
and the source always comes near the '-s'
It helps that I usually 'ls src' to check the path, and then edit that command to insert 'n -', before putting the destination at the end.

@monsieuricon @ics Same ✌️

@monsieuricon Related: rsync and where to put the * or the /

@monsieuricon get out of my head!!!!!

@monsieuricon IDK any program that doesn't demand $source $destination as parameters in that order...

So ofc the target is the destination...

@monsieuricon Relevant XKCD:

@monsieuricon
EVERY TIME!!!!!

@monsieuricon

People at Microsoft evidently agreed with you. Windows' `MKLINK` command has the opposite order from `ln`.

@monsieuricon The one that always gets me is rsync. Do I put a slash on the end of a directory or not? Decades, and I still often either look it up or end up with the wrong thing and have to clean up.

@monsieuricon @jalefkowit do not consider myself an admin BUT SAME (since Mac OS X 10.0)

@monsieuricon I fixed this for myself by repeating the idea that it's like "hey YOU... come HERE..." -- that is, I need to reference WHO I'm talking about before I can ever make a link. The rest flows from there. :D

So far, it's worked out fairly well. Thankfully. Such a constant irritant before that. 😩

@monsieuricon it's obviously $source $destination...

$source = ./linkname
$destination = /path/to/target

@monsieuricon @drahardja I know right away it’s the one on the left and I will always try the one on the right first.

@monsieuricon One of the reasons for such cryptic syntax is that Unix pioneers had to work with teletype terminals.

@monsieuricon
thank you, now I dont feel so alone. I'm been using linux since v1.1.59

@monsieuricon I have nightmares about this one

@monsieuricon @williampietri I add a -n for a dry-run, then look at the output and correct accordingly.

I do this every time since after 20 years I always forget what to do with the /.

@monsieuricon I just use a memory rule of "what to where".

What however is the evilest thing in command line tools, was in some partition management tool (sgdisk?) when cloning partition tables.

It broke the holy command line order and was like "command /dev/target /dev/source".

And yes, I had to learn it the hard way back in the days.

@monsieuricon i just have a "ln -s src dest" in my history

or in general i look at tldr pages (honestly very useful if i forget stuff like that)

@monsieuricon the way i remember it is to imagine im using `cp` to copy the file, except instead of copying, im creating a link. so, ln -s target linkname

@monsieuricon Pretty much the same, for a bit longer. The Dr. Suess-level mnemonic I came up with is along the lines of "One Fish, Two Fish": Old File, New File. It works for me.

@monsieuricon @GrumpusNation

so the way I remember this? if you don't specify a link name, it creates the symlink in the current working directory. Thus, the workflow that supports this is to have the target first.

@monsieuricon Some time ago I memorized `ln -s old new` and this always worked...

@monsieuricon yup, 30 years of Unix/Linux daily use and I still fail this one. Reminds me of USB Type-A 50% chance of plugging it wrong, but failing it *every* time.

BTW, @bagder started a separate thread on this and people are mostly getting it right on the first try - smh...

https://mastodon.social/@bagder/112220659572117434

@monsieuricon
I use only one argument 😉

@monsieuricon funny enough, this appears in my timeline RIGHT NEXT to https://mastodon.social/@bagder/112220659572117434

@monsieuricon someone once pointed out to me that ln takes its arguments in the same order as cp - it just creates a link instead of a copy - and it's been easy to remember ever since

@monsieuricon I just gave up remembering the order of arguments. Every time I need to create a symlink, I just cd into the directory and use the single-argument form. This way the only reasonable argument is the source file.

@monsieuricon I don't have THAT problem (symlink parameter order) unless I stop to think about it, but I did dump a bunch of files into the parent of the directory I had intended to with DOS XCOPY the other day.

@monsieuricon i always do ln -s /path/to/linkname; mv linkname the_name_i_want

@monsieuricon same

@monsieuricon i remember it by saying its the same order as cp

@monsieuricon this

@monsieuricon Every time, it's "ln --help" first. Can never remember!

@monsieuricon @da_667 damn do I feel this.

@monsieuricon it’s not just me!!

@monsieuricon
ln -s is like cp.

cp fromtarget dest
ln -s fromtarget tolinknamd

@monsieuricon @hypebot Just drop the second argument. It’ll link to that thing over there to here, with the same file name. The second argument is optional means it can’t be the source, it must be the target.

@monsieuricon I had the same issue for a while.

Especially since I rarely use ln. I try to convince my brain that "-s" would mean "source" even though I know it actually means "symbolic link", just so I remember that the first argument right after the "-s" option is the existing, "source" file.

@monsieuricon It works just like `cp` source then destination. That's how I remember it.

@monsieuricon 100%. Saying it’s like cp is not helpful as my mental model is the link going the other way (i.e. a link that points to the real file)

@monsieuricon With time everything will fit in place, your gut feelings will be gone, and ln will behave like cp.
(BTW: alias is different: it has a single parameter that is an assignment)

@monsieuricon don't worry you're in very good company

@monsieuricon
Every time 😁
(29 yrs)

@monsieuricon Best thing if you administer both Windows systems and Linux systems: mklink does it one way, and ln does it the other way. But which one does which? ​

@monsieuricon Oh gods it's not just me! I've felt like a complete idiot for this.

@monsieuricon so real

@monsieuricon tar or ln

pick your evil

@monsieuricon

Yep. I have to sit back and think, "it's like cp" and take a deep breath and then I'm okay.

@monsieuricon

Yeah, when I say it's like cp, that doesn't mean it's intuitive. I just have to repeat the mantra.

@monsieuricon

This is why I love `tldr`.

@monsieuricon I for one suffer the same but because I remember it is the other way around a get confused and have to look :) If there was a system wide config to set it in one of the ways!

@monsieuricon
All proper *nix commands use the syntax.
Command what_already_exists what_you_are_creating

@monsieuricon This is what /tmp is for.

@monsieuricon 100%

I've been cheating for decades by doing `cd target_path; ln -s source`

@monsieuricon I swear, it’s a randomized

@monsieuricon Hahaha yes

@monsieuricon @uliwitness I remember that it has the same interface as cp(1):

ln [-s] entry_that_exists entry_that_will_exist_after

@monsieuricon Every.
Single.
Time.
Still to this day, after nearly 20 years as a Linux admin 😄

Firstly, plain "ln" without "-s", and not crossing file system boundaries, is like "mv" without the remove part. You end up having the same file twice, in two directories, or different names in the same, symmetrically, no original and no copy. Doesn't work on directories, though.

Secondly, "ln -s" is like "ln", only the result is not symmetric, but then, it may cross file system boundaries and point to directories.

So if you remember how to use mv, you're fine.

@hennichodernich @monsieuricon

@monsieuricon @dan ok, this is TERRIBLE, but I heard it once about 20 years ago and I’ve had zero trouble with ln ever since.

Think of boobs: Everyone prefers real to fake.

Voila.

ln -s real fake

A trailing slash in rsync hides the name before it, so it becomes an anonymous directory and only content counts.

That idea somehow helps me to figure it out.

@williampietri @monsieuricon

@sidawson @monsieuricon lol 🤣 what

@sidawson @monsieuricon thing is that makes sense, in terms of how cp mv etc work. Yet it's somehow non-obvious

@denix @monsieuricon @bagder Oh, it's more than that. You have to try 3 times to plug in USB-A. And it's the same for ln. Neither order works the first time.

@monsieuricon Every. Single. Time.

@monsieuricon looking at this meme made me forget which order it should be.

@monsieuricon same

@monsieuricon (25+ years) What could possibly go wrong ? =)

(disclaimer: I abuse -s badly)

@monsieuricon I 100% agree with you. I get confused every time I create a link.

While on this topic, can we talk about `adduser` and `useradd` next?

@bandie @monsieuricon I use the -s to remind me it's ln -s source destination

@monsieuricon It's
ln -s $(pwd)/target path/to/linkname

@monsieuricon "it's the same as cp" doesn't work for me either. My mnemonic: The name of the real file is required. It goes first. The name of the new symlink is optional (if you don't provide a name it uses the real file's basename). It goes second.

@monsieuricon Especially fun when symlinking directories, where you can end up creating a new link within the directory if the intended symlink already exists

@monsieuricon Same. 25 years and still cannot figure it out.

@dan @monsieuricon Yeah, it's super dumb, annnnd quite problematic.

But, it def stuck in my brain, and I've never needed to worry about it since. (and I use ln maybe a couple of times a year, max).

@monsieuricon target linkname and if you’re at thr location you want the symlink you can leave off the linkname and it will produce a symlink in pwd that has the same name as the original file

@jornane @monsieuricon @drahardja Think of it like a soft `cp`, always works

(note to self) It's like `cp`. The first argument exists, the second one is the one you want to "create".

@monsieuricon My version of this is ssh port forwarding.

Nowadays VScode mostly does it for me, because the alternative is to copy random strings of the internet like goddamned spells.

@monsieuricon every single time

@monsieuricon I have the same problem with grep.

@monsieuricon the only rule that has ever worked for me is "pretend it's the cp command" but I can't reasonably explain it in a way that couldn't be misinterpreted

@monsieuricon The way I remember is that it's the same order as mv and cp. Rather than <target> <linkname> think of it as <origin> <destination>

@monsieuricon I have a helpful mental trick to help me remember: "man ln" every single time.

@linuxfiend @monsieuricon grep is worse for me since I usually pipe stuff into it rather than use it directly on files.

@drahardja @monsieuricon Nah. No way. The only way rsync is ever used is on whole directories, `-av`, and trailing slashes on both paths. Anything else has a lower chance of success than the lottery.
(that said, I use rsync for whole directories on a daily basis)

@monsieuricon Always a good time to man it.

@monsieuricon Hahaha, so many people comparing it to any number of other commands I have to look up everytime! But I've finally learned to remember ln -s as filename then linkname bc the file must already exist -- start where you are, USE WHAT YOU HAVE, [then] do what you can! 😹

@monsieuricon it's always been the same order as cp

@monsieuricon I feel seen

@monsieuricon EVERY SINGLE TIME

@monsieuricon Used to be me until I drilled it into my head that its about SOURCE and DESTINATION. "Where do we come from? Where are we going?"

@munin @monsieuricon @GrumpusNation Yeah, same here. The link name is optional. And if you pass only one argument, the target is the only one that makes sense. So it must come first.

@monsieuricon if it serves you consolation is a feeling I empathize with. Everyone who says "duh, is like mv" doesn't understand the pain and grief this tool brings to me.

@monsieuricon me too! 25 years using linux and check ln man every time

@monsieuricon @randomgeek I had the same problem for years... Then it clicked. It is the same as `cp`

So, if I ever forget I write the command as if I was copying the file, and then change `cp` to `ln -s`

@monsieuricon Destination (the "created" file, or the directory it/they goes/go in) is always last for cp, mv, and ln.

@Steveg58 @monsieuricon yes... yes... wait, except when you think of ln as a file alias, and alias is the other way around...

@monsieuricon Same. And back when I learned Unix in 1993 the man page/help said “ln source target” which, I mean, even that was confusing to me.

@clusterfcku @monsieuricon
ln existing_file new_alias

not seeing an exception. :)

@raggi @monsieuricon yeah... but not alias; troublesome for those who feel ln is more like alias than cp, right?

@Steveg58 @monsieuricon alias new_name existing_commands

@clusterfcku @monsieuricon it's this thinking which leads to the manpage being super confusing.

$tool $existing_path $newly_created_path

forget the minutae, start with the simpler description!

@clusterfcku @monsieuricon
alias is not a proper *nix command it is a shell thing.

@Steveg58 @monsieuricon yeah i'm not arguing the pattern you stated, i'm just reflecting on the mental model which is how some of us end up sweating with hovering finger

@monsieuricon same, same

@clusterfcku @monsieuricon
Sure but that is the mental model I have been successfully using since the 1980s to avoid the man lookup.

@monsieuricon i'm kind of fascinated that people think it worthwhile to try to school *you* of all people, if even @monsieuricon has trouble with this, the problem is not with @monsieuricon, it's with the damn thing :)

@monsieuricon "I'm in this picture and I don't like it."

@monsieuricon

we all have some unix/linux command we have a mental block and have to check the man page every time. one of mine is "zip".

@monsieuricon Think of it like copy. It's the same order as cp

@monsieuricon Same.

@monsieuricon So true 🤣

@raggi @monsieuricon 🤯

@monsieuricon @inthehands This is going on the Post-it on my display, below the root pw 😛

@monsieuricon

Just remember that ln has a single operand option and you'll never need to look at the documentation again.

@devnull @monsieuricon
Good hack!

@monsieuricon I think of it like cp/mv because the order is "existing thing" "new thing"

@monsieuricon I understand it, I know all of the tricks to remember, but I never get it right. I now just never do this as root and never without trying it once on another system just to be sure. This is clearly just beyond human intelligence.

@monsieuricon @dgar every single time - my command history is:

$ man ln

$ ln -s blah blah

Cannot make it stick.

@monsieuricon I tend to remember because you can omit the second parameter (the link name is optional in this case)
ln -s /some/other/directory
and create a link to that directory in the current directory with the same name. So, the 2nd one is what you want to call it.

@monsieuricon But yeah, is it
zip *.txt txt.zip
or
zip txt.zip *.txt
is the one that gets me.

@mezzodrinker @monsieuricon one thing that helped me is knowing that ln -s is the same order as cp or mv

@monsieuricon I blame Microsoft, for doing everything in the opposite order Unix did.

@paul_ipv6 @monsieuricon haha I was going to respond `ln -s` but I see the OP which started the thread and guess I'm in good company 😁

@monsieuricon it's easy to remember: you *need* the target, but a link name is optional, can be derived from the target you provide. So the target is first, and only if you need to change from default do you provide a link name.

@monsieuricon What I do:

1. ln -s something otherthing
2. If I didn't get an error, all good. Stop.
3. If I got an error, check if it's trying to clobber the source.
4. run ln -sf with the right args this time.

@monsieuricon
As a former gentoo user who compiled his own kernel I don't struggle with ln -s anymore. But there are other examples where I struggle. I totally get that one. 😅
@Madic

@rhoot @munin @monsieuricon @GrumpusNation 'only one that makes sense'

tell me you speak a nominative (rather than ergative) language without telling me :p

@monsieuricon easy to remember the order if you can remember linkname is optional

@monsieuricon documentation keeps on becoming more and more readible as you keep on being more and more experienced :)

@monsieuricon thank you! I was thinking is only my problem after admining 20+ years ;) @rysiek

@monsieuricon LOL Same.

@drahardja @monsieuricon

@monsieuricon glad I'm not the only one!

@monsieuricon

yes , me too.

@monsieuricon
Same here for scp ant tar :-)

@monsieuricon I feel like we could afford to make a better convention for these tools. Like using > to indicate directionality (I know that's used for redirection, though) or... something. What sort of hints could make these tools easier to use?

@monsieuricon IIRC IT should be Like mv and cp

@monsieuricon@social.kernel.org If only one could pass the two things as explicitly named parameters like --path and --target, maybe even with tab completion for those parameter names

@monsieuricon haha while i'm in the "bro it's like cp(1)" crowd, i can appreciate where you're coming from because of memcpy(dest,src, ..).

i tend to find myself in this situation when it comes to unfamiliar assembly syntaxes, or even at&t vs. intel -- is it like cp(1) or is it like memcpy(3)

@monsieuricon lesson i had to learn the hard way: don't guess wrong when you're root and saying -f -s

fortunately i had a spare copy of busybox on hand...

@monsieuricon

30 but same … until someone said “it's the same way 'round as cp”

@monsieuricon I have the same problem until I realized, that I don't need enter linkname there. Only when I need change the name. So it Is always "ln -s source" and it will create link to source file in current directory.

@monsieuricon Same here. I just learnt the order oft the words by heart: target linkname - target linkname - target linkname - so I can skip looking into the manpage, but I still actively have to think about what it actually means.

@monsieuricon my mental model for all commands is that the first file is input, second is output. That said i have always had problems memorizing linux command names and arguments and need to look most of them up…

@bandie @monsieuricon from the link to the target or from the target to the link? 😁

@kaito02 @monsieuricon from the link to the past,

from source to symlink

@monsieuricon Luckily, you can’t do any damage by using the “wrong direction”, unless you add the -f option.

@piotrsikora @monsieuricon @rysiek The thing that made me remember – if you replace ‘ln -s’ with ‘cp’ it should do almost what you want. :>

@monsieuricon damn I feel like NOW I will start feeling that doubt after never feeling it before 🙈

@wzyboy@dabr.ca @monsieuricon@social.kernel.org I always press both. Precisely one of them will succeed. 😆

@monsieuricon I feel seen

@monsieuricon I do the same thing with: "tar -czvf tarball path" and "tar -czvf path tarball".

@monsieuricon Here is my trick: even though we all know the '-s' is for "symbolic", let's pretend it is for "source". No need to thank me! 😁

@corsac @monsieuricon that's the logic I rely on as well

@monsieuricon You have made me feel less alone this day.

@monsieuricon Every f*cking time.

@slothrop @monsieuricon after many years I finally managed the ln -s syntax, but I cannot for the life of me remember if it is "chown -R" or "chown -r".

@monsieuricon @pluralistic It's like mv and cp: first the file that already exists, then the one you want to create.

@monsieuricon agree, it's like a 'rm -rf' you always need to think twice before clicking return.

@monsieuricon I try to remember this by assuming that the second argument is the one that's optional

@monsieuricon I have always felt it was backwards. And then to make it worse, I get used to ln and meanwhile the Windows mklink does it the other way around, so my confusion is only compounded going back and forth.

@tauon @monsieuricon what if they're in the same directory?

@monsieuricon powershell uses explicit `-Path -Target` args and I still manage to mix them up

@monsieuricon I actually remembered this 20 years ago because I gave the -s the alternative meaning of "source". So if you think it like this, you'll never be wrong

@rail_ @monsieuricon easy trick to remember, it's like cp!

@monsieuricon in all those cases - mv, cp, ln etc. - it is always old → new - old on the left, new of the right, so that the old precedes the new. This order is natural to people writing left-to-right, probably less natural to Arabs, Jews and other people whose language is written right-to-left…

@monsieuricon the way I remember is that `ln -s targetname` works (links to a matching named link in the current directory. Therefore the targetname has to come first.

It is the same as cp. So src trgt. Not sure why it is so hard to remember.

One copies file to somewhere or links one file to somewhere.

@monsieuricon glad to see I'm not the only one 😄

@monsieuricon Same, on both counts.

@monsieuricon feel your pain

@monsieuricon
it's interesting that this is such a universal human experience. IMO, this is the kind of thing that we would like AI to help with such that we don't have to open the man page for the 1000th time.