K. Ryabitsev 🍁
@monsieuricon
Moderator
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2517This account is for Linux/Kernel/FOSS topics in general: #linux, #kernel, #foss, #git, #sysadmin, #infrastructure.
For my personal account, please follow @monsieuricon@castoranxieux.ca.
Montréal, Québec, Canada 🇨🇦🇺🇦
K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@mort @dm @marcan This has nothing to do with the platform, really. I've reported many (what I consider) critical bugs to Python where they've been sitting in the shiny Github bugtracker without any movement. Your patches are ignored NOT because they were sent via email -- there's just nobody looking at them (because they are on vacation, tired, burned out, sick, etc).
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@ljs He's clearly not changing his opinion regardless, so I don't see the point of any continued discussion. It's just going to ruin my day. :)
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@captainepoch eh, I made my statement vague on purpose. I think I'll just be more choosy about following or not following some people.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
I have a niggling feeling that some people complaining about toxic development communities are actually merely annoyed that they are *differently* toxic from the way they like it.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan Yeah, but compare this with "you can copy all of linux kernel development archives going back 25 years, and keep them continuously updated, if you like". This is possible with lore.kernel.org -- so I want a similar level of archival and distribution convenience offered for all other kernel development platforms.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan What about "I want to go back to a discussion that happened 10 years later and still be able to view the entire thing?" And "fetch files by URI" is rife with faulty assumptions -- the "Universal" in "URI" means it's universally addressable, not universally retrievable.
It's a similar problem we already have today with pull requests, for example. If someone sends a pull request and the maintainer rejects it, we have no archive to go back to years later to investigate why it was rejected and what was submitted. I know it's a very niche concern, but as someone who wants to preserve and archive all aspects of kernel development process, I do care about saving this data.
It's a similar problem we already have today with pull requests, for example. If someone sends a pull request and the maintainer rejects it, we have no archive to go back to years later to investigate why it was rejected and what was submitted. I know it's a very niche concern, but as someone who wants to preserve and archive all aspects of kernel development process, I do care about saving this data.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan Oh, we have lots of standards. It's good, working implementations that are so hard to find. I mean, I just recently discovered that Python's email.message encoders are so broken, it's basically impossible to send a message with headers containing some unicode and not trip up some kind of 7-bit encoding bug.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan JSON is great until you have to embed a string containing quotes, or some binary content, at which point you're basically doing all the same horrible things you have to do with email messages. :)
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan I will agree with you regarding SMTP, but RFC2822 (the "email message" standard) is only a mess because it's old and full of questionable legacy workarounds that were necessary to deal with the early internet (7-bit SMTP protocols, mainly).
If we no longer need to worry about that legacy and can stick to the latest 8-bit-clean standard, the format is quite robust and solid.
If we no longer need to worry about that legacy and can stick to the latest 8-bit-clean standard, the format is quite robust and solid.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan ActivityPub doesn't really bring us anything we don't already have with RFC2822 and SMTP, though. It's just another way of doing the exact same thing, with the exact same inherent problems.
ActivityPub is pretty new and niche, so it hasn't yet been fully abused by spammers and other bad actors, but as time goes on it *will* get all the same kinds of horrible spam-avoidance workarounds that make email seem lossy and unreliable. :(
ActivityPub is pretty new and niche, so it hasn't yet been fully abused by spammers and other bad actors, but as time goes on it *will* get all the same kinds of horrible spam-avoidance workarounds that make email seem lossy and unreliable. :(
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@raggi @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @marcan Yeah, but people problem is the hardest problem! Believe me, for every person who is raving about how much they hate the process, there's another person who raves how much they love the process for its decentralized, no-single-point-of-failure, everything-is-in-my-inbox kinds of features.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@marcan @Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666
Everyone recognizes that the status quo is inefficient -- everyone just disagrees about how to fix it, and if "don't care if it's down for a month" is acceptable to you, it's not acceptable to many others.
I do have a foot in this dance -- I have been working on a workflow tool that makes it easy to submit patch series and participate in code review. My hope is that we can use evolutionary approach to improve the status quo.
https://b4.docs.kernel.org/en/latest/contributor/overview.html
I have a feeling that it may improve your life as a person who is trying to submit something to upstream.
(I do have a request -- please don't use obscenities in this conversation, because it just raises the emotional degree without actually bringing anything constructive to the table. I'm not really here to yell at anyone, so please don't yell at me.)
Everyone recognizes that the status quo is inefficient -- everyone just disagrees about how to fix it, and if "don't care if it's down for a month" is acceptable to you, it's not acceptable to many others.
I do have a foot in this dance -- I have been working on a workflow tool that makes it easy to submit patch series and participate in code review. My hope is that we can use evolutionary approach to improve the status quo.
https://b4.docs.kernel.org/en/latest/contributor/overview.html
I have a feeling that it may improve your life as a person who is trying to submit something to upstream.
(I do have a request -- please don't use obscenities in this conversation, because it just raises the emotional degree without actually bringing anything constructive to the table. I'm not really here to yell at anyone, so please don't yell at me.)
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @vincent @marcan I'm not convinced this is accurate. It's easy to blame tooling, which is the most visible part of the process. However, I'm pretty sure if we replace this with the most amazing workflow of submitting and reviewing the code, we'll still be 90% in the same situation, because:
1. Writing kernel code is hard
2. Reviewing kernel code is even harder
3. Upstreaming to rapidly-moving mainline is the hardest
We need maintainers, preferably well-paid teams of maintainers, much more than we need a shiny code review toolset.
1. Writing kernel code is hard
2. Reviewing kernel code is even harder
3. Upstreaming to rapidly-moving mainline is the hardest
We need maintainers, preferably well-paid teams of maintainers, much more than we need a shiny code review toolset.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @vincent @marcan if the solution is to fall back to what we're doing now, then we've not really solved anything, just complicated the process and made it more fragile.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @vincent @marcan kernel.org was offline for months in 2011 and Linux releases kept going out.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @jacksonchen666 @vincent @marcan no it isn't. If you knock out kernel.org, developers can still collaborate using the same process (email review) and put out a release that can be verified for authenticity by its digital signature.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @vincent @marcan @jacksonchen666 SMTP is not the only channel for passing around RFC2822 messages, though. However, it remains the only widely used distributed protocol for doing so.
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K. Ryabitsev 🍁
monsieuricon
@Conan_Kudo @vincent @marcan @jacksonchen666 a single point of failure platform is also not really acceptable. Imagine that you're sitting on a zero-day exploit of the Linux kernel and you want to prevent a fix from going out. Knocking out the central code management system is the logical move.
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